This has been an ongoing problem with this bike. Battery drains itself dead. Before I start looking on the big forums, thought I would start here.
1. Bike was new, would not hold a charge. Put in a new fresh battery. Still drained out
2. Upgraded battery to lithium and upgraded the stator, thinking that would fix it. Still drains dead. (does last longer though) Converted from AC to DC with Stator change and LED headlight upgrade.
3. there are no accessories, lights, or anything on for that matter.
4. As long as it is charged, and I am riding I am good. The problem is when it sits for a few days, weeks.
5. It did drain overnight at spring rally. I left my Montana gps plugged in, but I wouldn't think that would have been enough to drain it in 14 hours. Dead as door knob next morning.
Tips on tracing the draining source?
I know I should be riding it more to keep it charged, but, it shouldn't drain dead like this. :'(
You don't by chance have a 12V to USB converter like what battery tender makes on it do you? I put one on my 400 and it killed my Shorai battery in about 5 days. I unhooked that and it never happened again (never happened before either).
Apparently there is a "vampire" transformer in that thing that burns power whether its being used or not.
If that's not it, then:
I'm not an expert, but i'd:
Check resistance from battery positive lead to frame...That should be open.. if there is any continuity at all there is your affirmation that you didn't get 2 fluke bad batteries and you do have a "leak" somewhere.
With no accessories, clocks, lights, etc etc.. there should be nothing.
Next thing to check would be the regulator/rectifier, I'm sure you can find a test sequence for that. My suspicion is that its your problem.. but again I'm not an expert.
Its a really simple schematic on the 530.. fortunately.
I think I mentioned it Saturday, but I think KTM really cheaps out on the wiring. Maybe you've got a chafed wire in the steering head area, but I'd be thinking that's gonna be dead short rather than a slow draw.
I'm no help at all, but when you figure it out let me know. My 300 does the same thing.
One approach is to place an ammeter between the negative battery post and ground. You should see a few 10's or 100's of milliamps if there's a parasitic draw. Then pull the fuses one at a time... if the ammeter reading drops when you pull a fuse, you know that circuit is drawing too much current.
I'd also unplug the regulator/rectifier as Hank said, and see if the reading drops. The 530 probably doesn't have a lot of fuses in the harness.
If you have one of these plugged in it will kill your battery.
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/jasonh_010/Misc/IMAG1117.jpg) (http://s197.photobucket.com/user/jasonh_010/media/Misc/IMAG1117.jpg.html)
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/Robmicgrn/IMG_0899_zpsn47m56mv.jpg) (http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/Robmicgrn/media/IMG_0899_zpsn47m56mv.jpg.html)
I charged the battery overnight and put the amp meter to the negative terminal and the ground post. This is what I got. If I am reading this correctly :o I have 2.62 amps cycling out of the battery? nothing is on. No usb connectors, no accessories, light switch is off, fan is not running, nothing. Am I reading this right? I will go home tonight and start pulling fuses, but there is only a couple.
The rectifier was changed when I did the AC/DC conversion. Still have the drain, before and after.
Possibly a short on the wiring harness? It has been doing this since brand new.
the only thing I know for sure that may draw power all the time is the speedo cluster.
More questions than answers at this point. Ill keep digging
I think that is probably 2.62 milliamps, if it was pulling 2.6 amps the battery would be dead in a couple hours. 3mA is probably enough to drain a dirt bike battery in a month or two though.
Looks like you're on the 20mA scale, so I think that's 2.62mA..
(I see Jim beat me to it now). Start unplugging fuses, or connectors, and see what happens!
Thanks for the input guys! I will dig into it hopefully later to night and see what I can find.
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/Robmicgrn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-08/E1ADF835-0412-416C-BCDE-D742D89D1E9A_zpsovvox4yo.jpg) (http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/Robmicgrn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-08/E1ADF835-0412-416C-BCDE-D742D89D1E9A_zpsovvox4yo.jpg.html)
Two days on the charger, this is what I started with.
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/Robmicgrn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-08/919099ED-59DE-47CB-AF5A-C4F5F4DBA345_zpsxx3a7g32.jpg) (http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/Robmicgrn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-08/919099ED-59DE-47CB-AF5A-C4F5F4DBA345_zpsxx3a7g32.jpg.html)
Unplugged the thermostat fan switch
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/Robmicgrn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-08/9B030713-B524-459C-AF4D-BC34BB747D56_zpsrvkvvx69.jpg) (http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/Robmicgrn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-08/9B030713-B524-459C-AF4D-BC34BB747D56_zpsrvkvvx69.jpg.html)
and it dropped to this! I then unplugged the speedo cluster and was able to get it down to this
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/Robmicgrn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-08/838F4CEA-386B-4ACF-8DD3-297F78548D23_zpstcekngke.jpg) (http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/Robmicgrn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-08/838F4CEA-386B-4ACF-8DD3-297F78548D23_zpstcekngke.jpg.html)
I think .27 is manageable......... No?
It has been on my punch list to add a manual fan switch and a temp gauge. I am thinking that would solve the issue.... Input :-\ :-\ :-\ ???
Odd your temp/ fan switch is leaking that much current.
I have the same (or similar) switch on my 400. Measure the resistance across the terminals on the fan switch (disconnect both leads first) and I'll do the same on mine and we'll compare numbers.
You might just need to replace that fan switch. I would really think if it's working currently it would be OPEN (infinite resistance) at ambient temp... but maybe some current leakage is normal.
Random info: I do know that switch is the same switch used in a certain BMW car (80s 318 I think) and you can buy them in different temp ranges etc too. That's what I bought when I put my fan in.. I think mine turns on at 100, or 98C and turns off around 92C. Seems to work well with no boiling over. There is also a switch that turns on at a lower temp but your fan runs a LOT.
I think I have the part numbers saved somewhere if you want to go that route.
http://husaberg.org/cooling-systems/15053-thermo-switch-fan-kit.html
I don't have a fan or speedo cluster on my two-stroke, I guess that's why the battery never goes dead, even over winter. Thanks Rob for clearing that up. ;)
Quote from: Hank on August 21, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Odd your temp/ fan switch is leaking that much current.
Could it be the fan itself leaking? All I really did was interrupt that entire circuit. I will check the resistance on the switch tonight. I have had times where the fan would stay on for a long time after the bike was parked (I literally unplugged it at the thermo switch to get it to stop) and was the reason I had pondered on just adding a manual on/off switch somewhere in the circuit.
Quote from: Robmicgrn on August 21, 2015, 12:20:55 PM
Quote from: Hank on August 21, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Odd your temp/ fan switch is leaking that much current.
Could it be the fan itself leaking? All I really did was interrupt that entire circuit. I will check the resistance on the switch tonight. I have had times where the fan would stay on for a long time after the bike was parked (I literally unplugged it at the thermo switch to get it to stop) and was the reason I had pondered on just adding a manual on/off switch somewhere in the circuit.
No, because if the switch is open (temp below the turn on point), there should be no current flowing to the fan. IMO, that switch should only have 2 states:
open (infinite resistance) - fan is off
OR
closed (zero or very low resistance) - fan is on
... I don't know why it would just "leak a little". I'm sure its just a bi-metallic contact or something in there that once it hits a certain temp, the switch closes, and when it drops below the turn off threshold the switch opens. Its sorta weird. I'll check the resistance on mine tonight if I can remember.
Everything you never wanted to know about cooling fan switches!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQWQQr9EWMk
My switch is open at ambient temp,
Like I thought it should be.
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/jasonh_010/Misc/IMAG1118.jpg) (http://s197.photobucket.com/user/jasonh_010/media/Misc/IMAG1118.jpg.html)
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/jasonh_010/Misc/IMAG1119.jpg) (http://s197.photobucket.com/user/jasonh_010/media/Misc/IMAG1119.jpg.html)
I just got home and checked mine. Same settings,same reading. :-[
I think I would also check resistance between each of the terminals and ground, just to make sure one of the terminals in the switch is not conducting to ground.
+1 almost seems like that has to be the case if disconnecting nothing but those leads caused the current to drop.
Sent from the Altair 8800 I carry around.
Both terminals to ground are open on mine.
Sent from the Altair 8800 I carry around.
Quote from: Bogus Jim on August 22, 2015, 11:47:55 AM
I think I would also check resistance between each of the terminals and ground, just to make sure one of the terminals in the switch is not conducting to ground.
You lost me on that one. The terminals on the thermo switch or the terminal wires going to the switch.... :-\
Check the resistance from each terminal on the switch to the radiator itself. Both should be open.
Sent from the Altair 8800 I carry around.
Got it. As soon as I get out of the office I will get home and take a look!
Same readings as before. Switch is not shorting out to ground. One of the wires going to the switch, did, as I believe it should. Now what??? :-\
Hmm.. well one wire should have a path to ground, the one that goes to the fan, so I think that's normal. The other goes to the battery positive terminal.
Think of this circuit as a light bulb and a switch. Power goes to the switch, when the switch is closed, power flows to the light (fan in this case) and to ground. Its really a simple circuit. I'll look at my service manual wiring diagram and make sure I'm not over simplifying something.
It seems really really odd to me that you had a current drop in your first test when you disconnected only the fan switch leads, if the switch terminals are not conducting to ground. I can't think of why that would be.. but, I'm no genius at this stuff either :)
I might be out of ideas?
Yeah looked at the diagram.... its as simple as that.. battery +(Yellow /red wire in the harness) to the switch to the fan. So I think your problem lies elsewhere, but I'm still confused why your measured current dropped when you disconnected the wires from the switch.
The way this system works is a little weird, and I don't think I understand it totally, but I'm getting there.
The bikes don't have a regulator / rectifier, just a regulator. The stator is a "split" design that puts out both AC and DC, and the way it looks to me the regulator regulates both the AC and the DC. The AC runs all the lights, the regulated DC is used to charge the battery, so as I understand the only things that are connected right to the battery are the fan, the starter relay and start button, and the regulator.
You can see that the fan runs directly off the battery by touching the two fan switch wires together, the fan runs whether the bike is running or not.
I guess I'd suspect the regulator next.
I'm going to print out the wiring diagram and make some notes to make it easier to follow.. KTM's wiring diagrams aren't the clearest things I've ever seen.
None of this is probably real helpful :)
The internet is sure full of half information.
But I think I have it figured out now. The Stator only puts out AC (makes more sense) and what KTM calls a regulator is indeed a regulator / rectifier.
Not that that changes anything for what you are trying to figure out.. I still suspect your regulator/rectifier could be the problem since it seems we've eliminated the fan switch... although your earlier test results still don't add up.
Drawing directly from the battery:
Fan
Starter button
Starter relay
(the above are either ON or OFF.. should be no leakage and it seems we've eliminated that possibility with the fan switch)
The R/R
The speedo.
That's it, the CDI and lights etc are all powered by AC and isolated from the battery. I'm gonna have to get my meter out and verify some of this stuff.
I think; once the stator produces the AC, the R/R changes it to DC. It then controls the voltage depending on draw and rpm for charging and running of the different circuits. I don't believe you have both AC and DC running around the machine. Just AC converted to DC and then regulated. I think likely the CDI is probably it. I have no idea how to test it. Other than a charged battery, disconnect the cdi and wait, or maybe measure the current draw as previously with the cid unhooked.
No, all the lighting circuits ARE AC, that much I know for sure. The yellow wire in the harness is AC. KTM is a little unique in that manner.
The RR does convert a portion to DC for recharging the battery, and then a few items as listed above run directly off the battery.
Lots of places you'll see its referred to as a "split system", and some read like the stator itself is producing both AC and DC, then coupled with the fact that KTM calls the R/R a "regulator", I misunderstood and thought maybe the stator was producing both, which wouldn't be possible unless it had a rectifier on board. The schematic shows that's not the case though, as there is no direct connection from the stator to the 12V DC leg.. and I understand it now.
So its split, but only in that a portion of the AC is not rectified, for the lights and the CDI. You can see that in the schematic below.
The rest is rectified to DC and connects to the battery and the fan, speedo, and starter button and relay.
There is a fairly popular mod out there to convert everything to DC.. I personally don't see the point for my use though.
This is the entire schematic with my notes.
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/jasonh_010/KTM/400%20xcw/400%20elect_Page_1.jpg) (http://s197.photobucket.com/user/jasonh_010/media/KTM/400%20xcw/400%20elect_Page_1.jpg.html)
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/jasonh_010/KTM/400%20xcw/400%20elect_Page_2.jpg) (http://s197.photobucket.com/user/jasonh_010/media/KTM/400%20xcw/400%20elect_Page_2.jpg.html)
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/jasonh_010/KTM/400%20xcw/400%20elect_Page_3.jpg) (http://s197.photobucket.com/user/jasonh_010/media/KTM/400%20xcw/400%20elect_Page_3.jpg.html)
Quote from: Hank on August 24, 2015, 10:24:41 AM
I misunderstood and thought maybe the stator was producing both, which wouldn't be possible unless it had a rectifier on board.
Or a commutator... like the DC generators on old vehicles. ;)
I tend to agree with Hank, R/R is the next likely suspect. There should be two plugs on the R/R, one to the battery and one to the stator; I'd unplug the one to the battery and measure the current before/after unplugging it.
I think it's a long shot, but it's also possible the fan switch is "sticking". So when Rob first measured the current drop, the switch was leaking but then he came back the next night to measure resistance and in the meantime the switch popped open. So might be worth repeating that test and tap the switch body with a wrench or something.
Quote from: Bogus Jim on August 24, 2015, 12:48:01 PM
I think it's a long shot, but it's also possible the fan switch is "sticking". So when Rob first measured the current drop, the switch was leaking but then he came back the next night to measure resistance and in the meantime the switch popped open. So might be worth repeating that test and tap the switch body with a wrench or something.
Ah, good point. Rob even mentioned that his fan did stick on once.. so maybe it is a bit sticky.
Quote from: Robmicgrn on August 20, 2015, 10:30:57 AM..
The rectifier was changed when I did the AC/DC conversion. Still have the drain, before and after.
..
I just noticed this statement. So you converted the whole thing to DC?
That probably adds more potential current leaks.. but I guess I'd still suspect the R/R
I am currently working out of town. Hopefully, soon, I will get back home and be able to dig into this some more.
I converted the whole bike to DC. http://www.trailtech.net/stators-flywheels/ktm-stator-kits/ktm-4-stroke/sr-8310 it was plug and play, easy enough for me to do it. I wanted the higher watt stator (dead battery issue) and the Baja Designs LED runs on DC. I at one point thought the stock stator was bad as well. Obviously I still have the problem.
I really appreciate the input guys :) .
Stay tuned!